David - original proposal dates were around Labor Day;
which were probably worse.  I don't know the
flexibility we have since it is now advertised on
plone.org, but we will never be able to please
everyone.  It's also in the middle of Ramadan, close
to Columbus Day (perhaps close enough to negatively
effect Govt personnel participation?), and a whole
host of European holidays.

Sorry, but like I said we can't please everyone...

Paul



--- David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com> wrote:
[...]





     
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Paul,

I don't find that very acceptable.  If this was scheduled on  
Christmas, would you say the same thing?  I doubt it.   Equating Yom  
Kippur to Columbus Day is, I'm sorry to say, a terrible analogy.   
Would you equate Christmas to Columbus Day?

David
On Apr 17, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Paul Boos wrote:
[...][...]
>>> Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDT
>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark[...]
>>> Stahl <jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI[...]
>>> Subject: Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference[...]
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just looked[...]
>>> The conference falls on Yom Kippur, the holiest[...]
>>> faith.  For Christians, it would be like[...]
>>> on Dec. 25!  Can it be changed - perhaps to the[...]
>>> Otherwise, we are locking out those of us like me,[...]
>>> and use and love Plone.  I was very much looking[...]
>>> the conference this year.
>>>
>>> I hope something can be done about this.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High Holy[...]
>>>
>>> Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
>>> Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.
>>>
>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>> For those that haven't heard, we won our bid to[...]
>>>> Conference in DC,
>>>>
>>>>[...]
>>>>
>>>> Yay! :-)
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Alex Clark (http://aclark.net)
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject[...]
>>>> .
>>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for[...]
>>>>[...]
>>>>
>>>[...][...]

I think equating Yom Kippur to Christmas is an equally invalid analogy.  
Christmas is a holiday that is observed by the secular world (and, more 
specifically, the economic world).  Are you equating them because 
they're both [originally] religious holidays? -- because that fact alone 
seems completely irrelevant to whether a conference should or should not 
be scheduled on that date.  More important would be how many people 
would be unable to attend because of the scheduling.  In that light 
Columbus Day might well be an important consideration for the DC area.  
More important  yet would probably be which other conferences are 
scheduled around the same time.

My 0.02 -

Hans

David Diskin wrote:[...][...]
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> From: David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com>
>>>> Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDT
>>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark
>>> <aclark(at)aclark.net>, Jon
>>>> Stahl <jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI
>>> <limi(at)plone.org>
>>>> Subject: Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference
>>> 2008 in DC
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just looked
>>> at the dates.
>>>> The conference falls on Yom Kippur, the holiest
>>> day of the Jewish
>>>> faith.  For Christians, it would be like
>>> scheduling the conference
>>>> on Dec. 25!  Can it be changed - perhaps to the
>>> following week?
>>>> Otherwise, we are locking out those of us like me,
>>> who are Jewish
>>>> and use and love Plone.  I was very much looking
>>> forward to going to
>>>> the conference this year.
>>>>
>>>> I hope something can be done about this.  Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High Holy
>>> Days in 2008:
>>>>
>>>> Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
>>>> Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For those that haven't heard, we won our bid to
>>> host the 2008 Plone
>>>>> Conference in DC,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>> Yay! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Alex Clark (http://aclark.net)
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject
>>> 'unsubscribe' to zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
>>>>> .
>>>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for
>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>[...][...]

Planning was open to all volunteers.  The date selection period passed.

~ro


On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:22 PM, David Diskin wrote:[...][...]
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> From: David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com>
>>>> Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDT
>>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark
>>> <aclark(at)aclark.net>, Jon
>>>> Stahl <jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI
>>> <limi(at)plone.org>
>>>> Subject: Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference
>>> 2008 in DC
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just looked
>>> at the dates.
>>>> The conference falls on Yom Kippur, the holiest
>>> day of the Jewish
>>>> faith.  For Christians, it would be like
>>> scheduling the conference
>>>> on Dec. 25!  Can it be changed - perhaps to the
>>> following week?
>>>> Otherwise, we are locking out those of us like me,
>>> who are Jewish
>>>> and use and love Plone.  I was very much looking
>>> forward to going to
>>>> the conference this year.
>>>>
>>>> I hope something can be done about this.  Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High Holy
>>> Days in 2008:
>>>>
>>>> Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
>>>> Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For those that haven't heard, we won our bid to
>>> host the 2008 Plone
>>>>> Conference in DC,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>>
>>>>> Yay! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Alex Clark (http://aclark.net)
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject
>>> 'unsubscribe' to zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
>>>>> .
>>>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for
>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>[...][...]

I can't speak for the conference organizers, and I'm not officially
speaking for the Board of Directors. But ...

It was a terrible mistake for us to approve a conference that takes
place during Yom Kippur. Had anyone on the Board noticed that, we would
have asked the organizers to reschedule it. I'm sure that, had the
organizers noticed that, they would have rescheduled it, too.

Unfortunately, it appears that, at this point, it's too late to change.

Yes, it was a stupid mistake, but not intentional, and certainly not
one that was intended to signal to any community any poor intent.

The conference organizers are discussing whether day rates are feasible,
so that people who wish to come for one day--for any reason--would be
able to do so. I know that's not nearly as good as rescheduling would
have been, but it may be the only possible option at this point.

I don't think it's helpful for us to compare YK to other holidays,
or decide how much it's like Christmas or Arbor Day or anything else.
It's a significant holiday for a real population of people who make up
the greater Plone community, and we should have observed that, in
advance. Please understand that we're serious about making sure this
doen't happen again: we've already got a Foundation member who's
culled a calender of black-out dates for 2009, and we're welcoming
anyone to help with that effort. Look for an announcement soon about
this.

/end my 2 cents.

Best,

- j.
[...]

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 02:22:02PM -0400, David Diskin wrote:[...]

These mistakes do happen; at least one PyCon a few years ago was held
on Easter weekend and had a noticeable drop in attendance on the
Sunday.  (I have no idea if this is because people stayed away for
Easter celebrations or if Sunday's programming just wasn't very
interesting that year).

I'm not involved with the Plone Conference, but from past conference
experience it may not be possible to change the date at this point.
The planned date is only six months away, very short notice on which
to find a new venue that can host a few hundred people.

Thinking of possible fixes:

* Would it help at all if the conference had a special one-day rate?
  That way attendees could access a single day of programming (on the
  10th?) without paying for another day that they can't make use of
  due to Yom Kippur.  Or is the whole week or weekend ruled out?

* Could a subset of programming be presented earlier in the week or on
  the weekend, so that people unable to attend on Oct. 8-10 could at
  least get something from the event?

--amk

I hope that being an atheist makes me a disinterested third party....

This discussion hits very close to home for many people.  Email can
makes things sound very snide if they are not meant to be, and allows
for intentional snide remarks to be sent without taking time for a
second thought.

I think that if it is too late to reconsider the schedule, at least a
reasonable attempt could be made to acknowledge the frustration of those
who feel hurt and angered by the timing.  And comparing significant
dates across religious and political boundaries is a very touch thing,
even if you are one of those who have been hurt and angered.

But now I'm sure someone is going to be pissed at me.  But that's OK,
because I'm going to burn in hell anyway! :-)

Chris Estes

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Lellelid [mailto:hans(at)velum.net] 
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:31 PM
To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
Subject: Re: [ZPUGDC] Fwd: Terrible date choice - Plone Conference 2008
in DC

I think equating Yom Kippur to Christmas is an equally invalid analogy.

Christmas is a holiday that is observed by the secular world (and, more 
specifically, the economic world).  Are you equating them because 
they're both [originally] religious holidays? -- because that fact alone

seems completely irrelevant to whether a conference should or should not

be scheduled on that date.  More important would be how many people 
would be unable to attend because of the scheduling.  In that light 
Columbus Day might well be an important consideration for the DC area.  
More important  yet would probably be which other conferences are 
scheduled around the same time.

My 0.02 -

Hans

David Diskin wrote:[...][...]
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> From: David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com>
>>>> Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDT
>>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark
>>> <aclark(at)aclark.net>, Jon
>>>> Stahl <jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI
>>> <limi(at)plone.org>
>>>> Subject: Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference
>>> 2008 in DC
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just looked
>>> at the dates.
>>>> The conference falls on Yom Kippur, the holiest
>>> day of the Jewish
>>>> faith.  For Christians, it would be like
>>> scheduling the conference
>>>> on Dec. 25!  Can it be changed - perhaps to the
>>> following week?
>>>> Otherwise, we are locking out those of us like me,
>>> who are Jewish
>>>> and use and love Plone.  I was very much looking
>>> forward to going to
>>>> the conference this year.
>>>>
>>>> I hope something can be done about this.  Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High Holy
>>> Days in 2008:
>>>>
>>>> Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
>>>> Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For those that haven't heard, we won our bid to
>>> host the 2008 Plone
>>>>> Conference in DC,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>[...]
n-dc [...]
>>>>> Yay! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Alex Clark (http://aclark.net)
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject
>>> 'unsubscribe' to zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
>>>>> .
>>>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for
>>> questions.
>>>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>[...]
____________ [...][...]
[...]

Yeah, this is a good point.  I definitely was not intending to diminish 
the value of Yom Kippur.  Honestly, I'm not a big Christmas fan, and as 
a fellow atheist, I too plan to burn in hell.  The cold economics of it 
struck me as an invalid comparison, but then it's probably wrong to 
suggest that the Python/Plone community is as cold as economics :)  
Certainly there's no equality between a holiday that has religious 
significance and one that commemorates Columbus (though maybe in the 
opposite way, depending on where in the Caribbean you live).

Anyway, I certainly did not mean to offend anyone!

Hans

Christopher Estes wrote:[...][...]
>>> David - original proposal dates were around Labor Day;
>>> which were probably worse.  I don't know the
>>> flexibility we have since it is now advertised on
>>> plone.org, but we will never be able to please
>>> everyone.  It's also in the middle of Ramadan, close
>>> to Columbus Day (perhaps close enough to negatively
>>> effect Govt personnel participation?), and a whole
>>> host of European holidays.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but like I said we can't please everyone...
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> From: David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com>
>>>>> Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDT
>>>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark
>>>>>           
>>>> <aclark(at)aclark.net>, Jon
>>>>         
>>>>> Stahl <jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI
>>>>>           
>>>> <limi(at)plone.org>
>>>>         
>>>>> Subject: Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference
>>>>>           
>>>> 2008 in DC
>>>>         
>>>>> I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just looked
>>>>>           
>>>> at the dates.
>>>>         
>>>>> The conference falls on Yom Kippur, the holiest
>>>>>           
>>>> day of the Jewish
>>>>         
>>>>> faith.  For Christians, it would be like
>>>>>           
>>>> scheduling the conference
>>>>         
>>>>> on Dec. 25!  Can it be changed - perhaps to the
>>>>>           
>>>> following week?
>>>>         
>>>>> Otherwise, we are locking out those of us like me,
>>>>>           
>>>> who are Jewish
>>>>         
>>>>> and use and love Plone.  I was very much looking
>>>>>           
>>>> forward to going to
>>>>         
>>>>> the conference this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope something can be done about this.  Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High Holy
>>>>>           
>>>> Days in 2008:
>>>>         
>>>>> Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
>>>>> Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> For those that haven't heard, we won our bid to
>>>>>>             
>>>> host the 2008 Plone
>>>>         
>>>>>> Conference in DC,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             [...]
>>>>>> Yay! :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Alex Clark (http://aclark.net)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject
>>>>>>             
>>>> 'unsubscribe' to zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
>>>>         
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for
>>>>>>             
>>>> questions.
>>>>         
>>> http://zpugdc.org/lists/zpugdc/archive/2008/2008-04/1208427759866
>>>       
>>>>         
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>       [...]
>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
>>> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject 'unsubscribe' to 
>>> zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org.
>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for questions.
>>> http://zpugdc.org/lists/zpugdc/archive/2008/2008-04/1208454538538
>>>
>>>       [...][...]

The possible fixes you suggest would be helpful.  Thanks very much.

David
On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:42 PM, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
[...][...][...]

Joel,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and helpful response.  The day rate  
idea is a good one.  And, I'm glad that this incident will encourage a  
change in the process to avoid such mistakes in the future.

David
On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Joel Burton wrote:
[...]

Yes,  we have been looking at a day rate, but we have
to assess the impact as to what that does form a
budgeting standpoint.  In fact, Alex suggested the
discount be tied to Yom Kippur and I mentioned taht
could be taken in some ways we may not want (such as
endorsing one holiday as more than another).

Presuming by the emails that went back & forth of
which I skipped over, I presume one did not take
insight into what I was saying.  We can't change it
easily and if we changed it for one group, what other
groups do we please?

If it had been scheduled at Christmas, I (as one who
did not guide the process of helping pick the date)
have no reason to bad mouth when it was picked.  I
would simply choose to or not to attend depending on
the importance I put on my religious or family
commitments - I don't know how many things I have
missed because my reserve weekend fell on such and
such date.  

Volunteer the time if you want a say, don't bad mouth
it afterwards.  Alex and the team has done an
extremely hard job in balancing everything.  As at
least a partial partcipant, I know not all things I
would have selected have been chosen, but this is a
group process - not one catering to me, or any one
other or a smaller subgroup.  We need the word out -
staying away from a Govt holiday is a *good* thing -
so we ditched Labor day for the dates chosen for that
and because it didn't provide as mcuh time to get
ready.

I have nothing against Yom Kippur or any other
religious holiday of any religion (well maybe Aztec
holidays that demand human sacrifice), I just don't
expect secular activities to mesh with one's religious
holiday; mine or anyone else's. It's been a lot of
work to just get in a proposal, we can't easily change
it now.

that is all...


--- David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com> wrote:
[...]





     
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Hans,

good points...

I will say that the offense I took was from someone
that did not offer time to help plan and then sends a
PUBLIC email in a sense blasting how POOR of a choice
WE made.  

Equating it to Easter as Chris did makes a lot of
sense - a highly religious day for Christians, but not
a secular holiday.  Keeping it away from Columbus and
Labor Day or other Govt holidays is sort of beneficial
if we want to get more of our DC market attending (an
obvious reason for us to have bid for it in DC).

My only point is if we make changes this late in the
game for one group, how many other groups do we cater
to..?  Do we want any Croats?  It is a worldwide
conference.  They have a holiday on Oct 9th.  Maybe
they won't come,  I have no idea.  Not important to
you?  You're probably not a Croat. (It is their
equivalent to July 4th).  

Paul


--- Hans Lellelid <hans(at)velum.net> wrote:
[...]
=== message truncated ===





     
____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

On Apr 17, 2008, at 9:08 PM, Paul Boos wrote:
[...]

Truthfully, the discount is not as important as the fact that a day of  
the conference is being missed.  But, in this one instance, I would  
open this day rates to everyone.  You may end up making more money  
than you would lose.[...]

Everyone knows that this or any other conference would never have been  
scheduled on Christmas - that's a specious argument.  And, quite  
rightfully, it it had been, people would be protesting like crazy,  
regardless of whether they were on the date selection committee.  And,  
is this not a national conference?  Is everyone supposed to be on all  
conference committees everywhere to ensure the common practice of  
avoiding major religious holidays is upheld?[...]

[...][...]
>>> speaking for the Board of Directors. But ...
>>>
>>> It was a terrible mistake for us to approve a[...]
>>> place during Yom Kippur. Had anyone on the Board[...]
>>> would
>>> have asked the organizers to reschedule it. I'm[...]
>>> organizers noticed that, they would have[...]
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, it appears that, at this point,[...]
>>> change.
>>>
>>> Yes, it was a stupid mistake, but not intentional,[...]
>>> one that was intended to signal to any community[...]
>>>
>>> The conference organizers are discussing whether[...]
>>> feasible,
>>> so that people who wish to come for one day--for[...]
>>> able to do so. I know that's not nearly as good as[...]
>>> have been, but it may be the only possible option[...]
>>>
>>> I don't think it's helpful for us to compare YK to[...]
>>> or decide how much it's like Christmas or Arbor[...]
>>> It's a significant holiday for a real population[...]
>>> the greater Plone community, and we should have[...]
>>> advance. Please understand that we're serious[...]
>>> doen't happen again: we've already got a[...]
>>> culled a calender of black-out dates for 2009, and[...]
>>> anyone to help with that effort. Look for an[...]
>>> this.
>>>
>>> /end my 2 cents.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> - j.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Joel Burton - joel(at)joelburton.com
>>> Plone Consultant/Trainer - plonebootcamps.com
>>> Board Member, Plone Foundation -[...]
>>>
>>> AIM/Y!:wjoelburton, GTalk:joel.burton(at)gmail.com,[...]
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject[...]
>>> .
>>> Please contact zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org for[...]
>>>[...]
>>>[...][...]

Paul,

I apologize for the public email.  I was frankly shocked to see the  
date selection and wanted to let people know asap.  I did not mean to  
be "blasting" but if I came across that way, I'm very sorry.  Yes,  
perhaps, Easter is a better analogy.  Incidentally, I have helped plan  
ZPUGDC events in the past, but at this point, did not have the time to  
participate.  So, I really do appreciate all the hard work put in by  
Alex and the rest of the committee.

I think Joel put it quite well:

"It was a terrible mistake for us to approve a conference that takes  
place during Yom Kippur. Had anyone on the Board noticed that, we  
would have asked the organizers to reschedule it.  I'm sure that, had  
the organizers noticed that, they would have rescheduled it, too."

And, I'm glad steps have been taken at the national level to ensure  
this won't happen again in the future.

I appreciate any steps the organizers can do to help rectify things.   
Making a special effort to make videos of the sessions of Oct. 9  
quickly available is another idea to help.

David
On Apr 17, 2008, at 9:18 PM, Paul Boos wrote:
[...][...]
>>> I hope that being an atheist makes me a[...]
>>>
>>> This discussion hits very close to home for many[...]
>>> makes things sound very snide if they are not[...]
>>> for intentional snide remarks to be sent without[...]
>>> second thought.
>>>
>>> I think that if it is too late to reconsider the[...]
>>> reasonable attempt could be made to acknowledge[...]
>>> who feel hurt and angered by the timing.  And[...]
>>> dates across religious and political boundaries is[...]
>>> even if you are one of those who have been hurt[...]
>>>
>>> But now I'm sure someone is going to be pissed at[...]
>>> because I'm going to burn in hell anyway! :-)
>>>
>>> Chris Estes
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Hans Lellelid [mailto:hans(at)velum.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:31 PM
>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
>>> Subject: Re: [ZPUGDC] Fwd: Terrible date choice -[...]
>>> in DC
>>>
>>> I think equating Yom Kippur to Christmas is an[...]
>>>
>>> Christmas is a holiday that is observed by the[...]
>>> specifically, the economic world).  Are you[...]
>>> they're both [originally] religious holidays? --[...]
>>>
>>> seems completely irrelevant to whether a[...]
>>>
>>> be scheduled on that date.  More important would[...]
>>> would be unable to attend because of the[...]
>>> Columbus Day might well be an important[...]
>>> More important  yet would probably be which other[...]
>>> scheduled around the same time.
>>>
>>> My 0.02 -
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> David Diskin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I don't find that very acceptable.  If this was[...]
>>>> Christmas, would you say the same thing?  I doubt[...]
>>>> Kippur to Columbus Day is, I'm sorry to say, a[...]
>>>> Would you equate Christmas to Columbus Day?
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Paul Boos wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> David - original proposal dates were around[...]
>>>>> which were probably worse.  I don't know the
>>>>> flexibility we have since it is now advertised[...]
>>>>> plone.org, but we will never be able to please
>>>>> everyone.  It's also in the middle of Ramadan,[...]
>>>>> to Columbus Day (perhaps close enough to[...]
>>>>> effect Govt personnel participation?), and a[...]
>>>>> host of European holidays.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but like I said we can't please[...]
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- David Diskin
<david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com>[...]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: David Diskin[...]
>>>>>>> Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDT
>>>>>>> To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <aclark(at)aclark.net>, Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stahl <jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <limi(at)plone.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Terrible date choice  - Plone[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2008 in DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> at the dates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The conference falls on Yom Kippur, the[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> day of the Jewish
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> faith.  For Christians, it would be like
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> scheduling the conference
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on Dec. 25!  Can it be changed - perhaps to[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> following week?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise, we are locking out those of us
like[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> who are Jewish
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and use and love Plone.  I was very much[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> forward to going to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the conference this year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope something can be done about this.[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High[...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Days in 2008:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
>>>>>>> Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those that haven't heard, we won our
bid[...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> host the 2008 Plone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Conference in DC,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>[...][...]

Thanks David,

I have no issues with you not wanting it on Yom Kippur
and I am really hoping that the daily rates work out
(I think you probably are right, they will more than
make up for the effort, but we havn't cranked the
numbers through yet).

At any rate, no grudges on my end.  Just tired and
yes, got a bit angry at someone publicly targeting our
dates.  None of us conciously tried to choose bad
dates for anyone, but we also recognize we can not and
should not try to please everyone - it would be
impossible. 

At any rate, hoping this all works out and you make
the conference dates that you can...

Cheers!
Paul



--- David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com> wrote:
[...]
=== message truncated ===



     
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On 18/04/2008, David Diskin <david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com> wrote:[...]

Of course it wouldn't. And I guess that's the crux of this debate. The
dates coincides with a religious holiday not commonly observed by
neither the North American population, nor the European.

Being a secular society (at least on paper), I don't think it's
reasonable to demand that organizers pay attention to holidays that
are not commonly observed by a greater part of the population. Still,
it's certainly a reasonable argument for choosing alternatives dates
in the first place.

To give some perspective, Ramadan begin September 1st this year, with
a 10 day period of Leyla al-Qadr starting September 20th. Ramadan ends
Oct 1st (a Wednesday). So that's a good three or four weeks that we
need to work around, too.

Religion deserves the utmost respect, but I think that the choice of
not being religious deserves equal respect. This is important to keep
in mind.

 \malthe

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 4:41 AM, Malthe Borch <mborch(at)gmail.com>
wrote:[...]

Unlike Ramadan and Lent, Yom Kippur is like Easter or the Sabbath;
working on Yom Kippur is a bad thing.

However, since I followed the discussions on locations and dates for
the conference, and am a kind-of practicing Jew, I'm at fault here.
Now that things are set, I'm not going to ask everyone to reopen the
negotiations and reschedule the conference because I didn't check my
Google Jewish calender  widget.  I appreciate that my holiday is now
something that is of concern, but the I think its too late to do
anything about it.

A special pricing consideration would be nice, but isn't mandatory. Of
course, I'm local, so someone traveling from far away might feel
differently.
[...]

Hi All,

    When I was Database Manager for the National Commission for Certification
of Acupuncturists, a board member, Malvin Finkelstein used to routinely
schedule certification exams on the Jewish Holy Days.  I fought it every time,
but the backstory was that Barbara, the Commissioner, was using Nancy Reagan's
astrologer to schedule the exams.  Those were the days.  HeadStraight!!!!!

From: david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com
To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:38 -0400
Subject: [ZPUGDC] Fwd: Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference 2008 in DC



Begin forwarded message:From: David Diskin
<david.diskin(at)aliencamel.com>Date: April 17, 2008 12:30:54 PM EDTTo:
zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org, Alex Clark <aclark(at)aclark.net>, Jon Stahl
<jon(at)onenw.org>, ALEXANDER LIMI <limi(at)plone.org>Subject:
Terrible date choice  - Plone Conference 2008 in DC 
 I'm sorry to rain on the parade, but I just looked at the dates.  The
conference falls on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish faith.  For
Christians, it would be like scheduling the conference on Dec. 25!  Can it be
changed - perhaps to the following week?  Otherwise, we are locking out those
of us like me, who are Jewish and use and love Plone.  I was very much looking
forward to going to the conference this year.

I hope something can be done about this.  Thanks.

David

P.S. These are the dates for the Jewish High Holy Days in 2008:

Rosh Hashanah - 9/30 and 10/1
Yom Kippur - evening of 10/8 and all day 10/9.

On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:29 AM, Alex Clark wrote:

For those that haven't heard, we won our bid to host the 2008 Plone Conference
in DC,

http://plone.org/news/plone-conference-2008-location-announced-washington-dc

Yay! :-)
[...]

Hi Chris!

Still in the area? I haven't seen you around biking...

RE: your mail. While some may find it amusing, others certainly will not
so I would appreciate it if you didn't send this type of email to the list.

Thanks,

Alex

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 05:00:58AM +0000, Chris Achstetter wrote:[...][...]

On Apr 22, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Alex Clark wrote:
[...]

I don't find censorship amusing; at all.

~ro

Reed, 

Fair enough, but my intention was not to censor
(according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship).

I'm simply asking Chris to *think* before posting to the list, it's up
to him to decide what he does after that ;-) And I'm certainly
not going to stop him (however majority may rule and he could end
up getting kicked, as things go in open-source land).

And of course, my preference is for noone to *anger* anyone else on 
the list; it's for discussion of Python and it's related technologies, period.
Not censorship, religion, etc.

Just IMO, of course, :-p

Alex

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 09:19:54AM -0400, Reed O'Brien wrote:[...]
[...]