I am so frustrated. 

I think Plone is a great CMS. I know that it is very powerful. I am
very excited about the possibilities it offers for my organization.
However, I wish it were more non-Python programmer friendly.

I didn't think I'd have to call the outside developer every time I
wanted to make a simple change to the site. Every single thing that I
consider standard website functionality has required me to either find
code to do it or have it written. My current employer can afford to
work with a developer, but not forever.

Not everyone is a Python programmer. Not everyone wants to look
through code and figure out which function does what.  Don't get me
wrong; I don't mind doing this type of work at all. I do it all the
time with the other open source software packages I use, but it's just
plain ridiculous to have to write some code to make a regular link.
Why isn't that standard?

I want to be able to manage my site. Easily. I want to create a new
workflow. Easily. I want to create a new skin. Easily. I can't do any
of this now. I have read the Zope Book. I have read Plone Content
Management Essentials. I have read The Definitive Guide to Plone. I
have searched the internet. I have Googled, I have asked the list and
the channel.

Sorry for the rant. 

Lisa

I'm new to Plone and have found it fairly easy to
modify through the Zope Management Interface.  I agree
that the documentation is not particulary helpful.  I
found the best way to figure out how to customize
Python was by trial and error.  If you really mess
things up, there's always the Undo feature that can
restore settings to a previous state. I had to create
a new content type with  a custom workflow.  After a
number of iterations and false starts I was able to
get it to work, without adding any Python code.  I am
trying to learn Python since I will be needing some
customized scripts.  

So my suggestion is to get to know the ZMI and see
what you can do with it.  I cusomized base propertis,
style sheets, templates the first day I installed
Plone.  Workflow was a much bigger challenge.  

Rita

--- Lisa Jeter <lisa.jeter(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

[...]

Hey, Lisa.

You may have found it frusrating because sometimes the best way for 
doing something is not immediately obvious. We've completely documented 
the development of two advanced Plone portals each of which involve 
Archetypes. If you're interested, I can send you the documentation. It 
may save you dozens of hours of trial and error

Regards,[...]

Hey John, 

That is generous offer, I'd be interested in seeing that doc as well!
By the way do you have a powerpoint or pdf of the talk you gave? 
I heard it went well...

Alex

On Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 02:09:59PM -0400, John Kavanagh wrote:[...]
[...]

Why not post links here?

On 7/21/05, John Kavanagh <jkavanagh(at)earthsat.com> wrote:[...]

[...]

HI, can you send a copy to me too? We have made quite some customizations on
our sites but still I'd like to see what cool stuff your company have done...

Xueying

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Clark [mailto:aclark(at)aclark.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:22 PM
To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
Subject: Re: [ZPUGDC] Minor Rant


Hey John, 

That is generous offer, I'd be interested in seeing that doc as well!
By the way do you have a powerpoint or pdf of the talk you gave? 
I heard it went well...

Alex

On Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 02:09:59PM -0400, John Kavanagh wrote:[...]
[...]

Lisa Jeter wrote:[...]
Lisa,
Sorry you are having difficulty.  It is a bit of a curve.
As for your Security question regarding cut delete, change on folder
objects...

Go to the ZMI | portal types | click on the security tab

copy or move
delete
change permissions

maybe you are looking for those?

If you are looking for security on a specific folder
ZMI | pick the folder (e.g News) | click the security tab

see copy or move, delete

Try  ZMI | click on your workflow | Click the States Tab

Check ou tthe permissions

Modify as necessary | Click Change | Click Update Security settings...


Creating Links-
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/create-link

I don't know what you are trying to do, so what I can say is limited. 
Workflows are complex concepts; and so is implementing them.  The fact
that plone/zope allows you to do that within a rigid security framework
is pretty foo-delic.  If you know of another framework that allows you
to create/manage content based on proven security roles and workflows
more easily; please let me know.  I mean I can' imagine the headache of
trying to accomplish the same thing in java, platform independent, with
a single click installer...
without being a java programmer.

Best and let me know if any of the above helps you at all.


best regards,
reed
[...]

John Kavanagh wrote:[...]
<chants>
post the docs, post the docs
</chants>

~reed
[...]

I believe he posted it on the ZPUGDC site I believe.

And John, unless there are any major concerns; why not post the doc you
mentioned on the site as well.  That might be a good place for people to
grab it as opposed to emailing it out to each person.

Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org
[mailto:zpugdc-owner(at)lists.zpugdc.org]On Behalf Of Alex Clark
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:22 PM
To: zpugdc(at)lists.zpugdc.org
Subject: Re: [ZPUGDC] Minor Rant


Hey John, 

That is generous offer, I'd be interested in seeing that doc as well!
By the way do you have a powerpoint or pdf of the talk you gave? 
I heard it went well...

Alex

On Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 02:09:59PM -0400, John Kavanagh wrote:[...]
645
[...]

Lisa's point that Plone is not easy enough yet (mainly to customize)
should simply be acknowledged. This is still true in 2.1. I think
there are two solutions that can be implemented for the upcoming 2.1
user cycle: the development of a good set of Plone Recipes (this
should probably done apart from plone.org, as something like
PloneRecipes or PloneCookbook.org) and the development of a
PloneUsability product that would include various out-of-the-box
interface solutions with documentation and possibly ttp configlets
(for example, simple horizontal and vertical menu generators,
configured javascripts, etc.). I would be glad to donate server space
for either of these projects.
  
On 7/21/05, Joseph Method <tristil(at)gmail.com> wrote:[...]

[...]

Sure, I'd love to see it. Thanks.

(replying to both emails)

Yes, I agree, the best way to do things in Plone are not obvious, at
all. Coupled with poor documentation and it's lethal. I've worked with
software that isn't documented, but I could rely on the message boards
for support/insight. No offense to anyone on the list, but that isn't
happening in this community. I'm not saying that folks aren't helpful,
I'm saying that the answers (to me) are coming out of a
programmer/developer culture and not an administrator's or designer's.

After I posted my first question today about the existence of a matrix
that explained all the security options, my developer made the reply I
received on list even more clear to me. Basically, those screens are
just a compilation of all the security settings from every installed
product! All mishmashed together with no clear indication of which
product is using it. What's that about? That information isn't in The
Zope Book. That's not in Plone Content Management Essentials. I've
been back there clicking like crazy, trial and erroring! That's not
fun.

I've been working in the ZMI and I've figured out alot; I got the base
properties, stylesheets, etc. in the first few days. I have picked up
alot, but I can't make any major advances in knowledge without
spending hours fiddling around because there's no good resource for
what I want to do.

On 7/21/05, John Kavanagh <jkavanagh(at)earthsat.com> wrote:[...]

Thanks, Joseph. I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated as I am if I had
such a place where I could go pick up bits and pieces like you suggest
below.

Over the weekend I found a product, CPSSkins that's a wysiwyg template
tool. I'd like to give the developer a case of beer; they deserve it.
It's not perfect, but it lets you start from scratch and add what you
want where you want. You can get complex with it and you still need to
work in the ZMI, but my goodness, I had a brand new template in less
than an hour.


On 7/21/05, Joseph Method <tristil(at)gmail.com> wrote:[...]

Lisa Jeter wrote:[...]

Lisa:

If you haven't already installed it, the Web Developer extension for 
FireFox may aid your CSS work with templates. Give it a whirl...

http://chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/

Regards,[...]

On 7/21/05, Reed L. O'Brien <reed(at)intersiege.com> wrote:[...]

Did that, didn't work (correctly). Did it at root, still didn't give
the buttons for all the pages. Did it in workflow, still didn't give
the buttons. From there, it got worse and worse. :(

[...]

This is what I meant by having to write code to create a "regular" link:

Creating Link Types that Take You Directly to the Link
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/repurpose-link-object/view?searchterm=link%20redirect

Thanks, Reed
[...]

Yes, I have that installed. It's an excellent tool. That's what I used
to get into the nitty-gritty of base properties and plone.css.

Look folks, I am very proficient in CSS, javascript, etc. I can do
lots and lots and lots with webpages. Just not in Plone. THAT is what
is frustrating me. Everything I know how to do, has to be done
differently in Plone and it's like it's a huge secret.
[...]

Is there any way that ZPUGDC could be such a place that Lisa mentions,
where non-Python programmers or novice-Plone users could be included
within the format of its agenda?

My employer is cautious about engaging a developer, even under limited
a service contract, for similar reasons of sliding down that slippery
slope.

I too have spent many hours and days scouring lists and pouring over
documentation since just after Plone was introduced and should be more
adept it but, am not. Would also appreciate seeing the documetation
mentioned by John earlier.

Thanks,
Cynthia




On 7/21/05, Joseph Method <tristil(at)gmail.com> wrote:[...]

John -

As you can see, lots of people would be interested in your docs.   
Please consider posting them on ZPUGDC as several others have  
suggested.  Otherwise, please email them to me as well.  Thanks,

David

On Jul 21, 2005, at 2:09 PM, John Kavanagh wrote:
[...]
==============================
David Diskin, david.diskin(at)verizon.net

[...][...]
What did you do at root? Did you want the chanWhat were you expecting
(trying to make happen) and what was the result you ended with?
When, if, your first result wasn't what you expected did you return the
setting to their previous state?
If they didn't produce the result you expected they will certainly do
something. Which may compound weirdness with subsequent changes.
I know from experience;-)[...]
What are you trying to link to what? Content to other content? object to
object? Content to Object?
Still don't know what you are trying to do.
[...]
cheers,
reed
[...]

On Thursday 21 July 2005 5:09 pm, Lisa Jeter wrote:[...]

Lisa:

You're 100% correct.

Unfortunately, it's hard for programmers to create systems that are both 
flexible and easy-to-use. Sometimes we err too much on the side of 
flexibility, and the best we can is get slapped and told about it.

People write pretty often to the Zope and Plone mailing lists with messages 
that offer particular complaints/suggestions/etc. about this, but it's hard 
for us as a community of developers to understand what real people really 
understand and don't about our software. Things like the bootcamps help a 
bit--seeing where the students get stuck help me understand where we need to 
improve the product.

A *great* project for ZPUG/DC would be to organize something a  bit more 
structured than the usual single email that really reports to the developers 
on what people understand, find useful, find confusing, etc. Perhaps this 
could grow out of the presentations people have given at ZPUG/DC about what 
they've learned, what was helpful, etc.--kind of a meta-document on "Here's 
What a Bunch of End Users Really Think About Where Are."

I'd find that useful, at least. It gives us a roadmap of sorts to work 
against.

Anyhoo, all, I'm in New Orleans for the Plone Symposium here, and got to spend 
some time with David Diskind here at the conference. This was very nice and 
makes me nostalgic for ZPUG/DC, so here's hoping everyone is doing well.

Best,

 - j.